Restoration

Technical questions and answers
Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Wed May 29, 2019 4:29 pm

Cheers Udo. So far, I've only managed a look at the transfer gears and as far as I can tell with my untrained eye, they look good as new. All turning by hand nice and smooth, hi/lo shift good and precise. The CDL and lock all seems good. The oil in there was like new; gold and clear.

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I'm limited in what I can do as I don't have any special tooling for pulling/pressing bearings, etc. Am I correct in thinking that I will be able to remove the front cover and lift out the main and lay shafts with bearings attached? If I can do that and can inspect the bearings then I could either buy tools or take to gearbox specialist for help. I'm suffering a bit from gearbox virginity at the moment :(
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

udo1-ton
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:59 pm

Re: Restoration

Post by udo1-ton » Fri May 31, 2019 8:56 am

Being a bit nervous is normal :D
it is not necessary to have special tools for the LT95. To get the tilted roller bearings off the shafts, an angle grinder is useful. First you have to destroy the roller cage and than cut a slice off the inner ring. Sometimes the heat is sufficient to take the ring off, if not a hammer and chisel will burst it on the cut surface. All other bearing parts can be disassembled by a hammer and drift punch.
For assembling you can heat the new bearing on a stove up to 100°C and push it on the correct position by hand. The lay shaft bearings have to get the correct preload by shims. For measuring you need a spring scale as a special tool.
There are a lot of trust bearings between the main shaft gears. The last one is a little bit tricky to install, it likes to slide of the shaft...
Take a sticky grease to keep it in place.
Here is an link to german forum with nice pictures:
https://www.badenlandy.de/forum/viewtop ... f=31&t=235

Udo

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Fri May 31, 2019 4:17 pm

Some very nice photos on that forum, but it's all in Deutsch German :shock: :lol: :lol:

I've cracked on with disassembly but have been in a fight all afternoon with the 2 large bolts inside the bell housing holding it onto the gearbox. Got the 2 nuts off the top studs and the 2 bolts out easy enough, and cracked off and undid the 2 large nuts from outside bottom, but those 2 bolts inside will not crack off; they are stupidly tight. I've removed hub nuts with less hassle! Is it normal they are so tight or has someone been at it with their windy gun I wonder? Not sure what I'm going to do.

The primary spigot shaft seems to have a lot of play and I'm guessing that is where I'll find the problem with this box (If I ever manage to open it). The clutch release bearing was in very bad shape with the the plastic body having spun on the shaft and melted; the bearing itself grinding. The oil inside the bell housing looks to have come from the oil pump/seal so more indication that the problem is behind the front cover. How though am I going to undo those 2 bolts?
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

disco2hse
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:51 am
Location: Auckland NZ

Re: Restoration

Post by disco2hse » Fri May 31, 2019 7:49 pm

Would it have frozen from steel-aluminium electrolysis? How about a dose of penetrating oil, then some good whacks with a number 5, then some revolutions on your rattle gun?
Then on reassembly a good dose of copper grease.
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:50 am

I already tried penetrating fluid and prolonged attack with rattle gun, breaker bar with scaffold pole extension, etc. Half the problem now is keeping the gearbox from moving while trying to turn the bolts. I've ordered a torque multiplier to see if that helps although knowing my luck, I'll not be able to get it in there.
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:17 pm

Well, after all the struggling yesterday, The torque multiplier arrived and I got straight back on it. I ordered this (will help with hub nuts etc.) ...

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I fully expected that it wouldn't fit inside the housing but, it actually went in nicely...

Image...

...and with just two turns of the crank handle, the bolt cracked off and was free to remove.

Housing off ready for a good clean.

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...and the front plate and cover needs a good scrub too.

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A bit cleaner

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The first observation now looking at this a bit closer is the condition of the primary spigot shaft splines. As far as I can see, there is virtually no wear at all to the splines, they look near new.

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I pressed on and removed the front cover...

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...and lifted out the layshaft

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Again, closer inspection of the layshaft taper bearings and races shows very little wear.

Image

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I'm at a loss to understand why the PO thought the box was "shot"? It looks to me like it was rebuilt and is in near new condition! The only obvious problem I've found is the near destroyed clutch release bearing assembly, and what looks like a poor oil pump seal.

Not knowing the history of the vehicle, I'm having to slowly work out what is the likeliest scenario. I know that it has been rebuilt on a galvanised chassis and that the bulkhead used was not the original. Also, I know that the engine put in it is a RPI rebuilt Range Rover Classic 3.5 ltr V8. RPI rebuilt the V8 in 1996. The gearbox is a correct for period 881 prefix version and is correct for a Stage 1 109 V8. However, since working on it I find that it has a hand written date on it...

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19th November 1980. The problem I had with the bellhousing was curious in that the bolts I struggled to undo shouldn't have been there, it should have had two studs there with nuts holding the housing in place. The studs were at the bottom of the box where the bolts should have been. The general condition of the box and lack of wear suggests to me that it was in fact rebuilt either in 1980, or in 1996 at the same time as the engine. There is no way of knowing though unless the person responsible ever gets in touch to tell me what was done.
As far as I'm concerned, the good news is that I have a pretty good engine and transmission that should be spot on when I get it all back together.
The down side is the amount of work chasing after a so far imaginary problem! And a workshop full of gearbox parts I have to put back together.

Image
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:06 pm

After looking through the parts catalogue I've changed my mind about the bellhousing fixing, it shows the setup as I found it on mine. A quick check of the spare and that's the same too, so seems I was talking rubbish about those bolts. Just dead tight and loctighted too.
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

disco2hse
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:51 am
Location: Auckland NZ

Re: Restoration

Post by disco2hse » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:35 pm

Probably just loctite and not over tightened. Stuff was doing its job ;)
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:38 pm

You're probably right. The problem is applying the torque needed to crack off the bolts loctited inside the casing while the box is free to move. Anyway, problem solved.

Today I was woken with dawn delivery of my newly galvanised bulkhead.

Image

It has a lot of dross to clean off and will need quite a bit of surface finishing. Then it will be skimmed as needed and primed for painting. Not the best quality job in the world but will outlast me :)
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

disco2hse
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:51 am
Location: Auckland NZ

Re: Restoration

Post by disco2hse » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:50 pm

Well I think it looks the bees knees.

Would you consider leaving it as zinc? What effect does paint have on the oxidisation (protection) process?
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:51 pm

I've kind of considered the 'bare' look, as it were, but It would look too rough and ready IMO, I prefer a nicer finish. I am thinking that a silver paint job might be the way to go though. Might be a bit too modern Defender, but I am really tempted to try for say that Titanium Silver, but not sure it would go with galvanised cappings and screen. Will probably end up sticking with Limestone seeing how much paint is likely to cost :wink:
As for "oxidisation protection", as far as I understand things adding layers of paint on top simply adds more protection. It has to be washed with a mordant solution to ensure a surface that paint will adhere to, and then the usual process of primer, base and topcoats.
What is not obvious from the photograph is how the zinc has revealed all of the weld lines and has built up on them. This will all need to be ground back to a smooth surface for paint. There are also a lot of inherited dents around the gutter that are too bad to leave as is, so will need to be filled. I'll likely be giving it several coats of epoxy primer to give a decent surface. I just hope I manage to make a good job of it and don't end up with an unsightly mess. I'm quietly confident though.
I have to tap out threads etc and make sure it still fits first. :shock:
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:12 pm

I've been pressing on with the gearbox, and with the help of a hydraulic bearing separator have managed to strip it down for proper inspection.

Image

I still think that it is in near new condition and really do wonder if it was rebuilt before. It's where the diy approach falls down as lack of experience and familiarisation with gear/bearing wear, etc. makes it difficult to assess non obvious problems. In my case, the only problems I can identify are: a very slight noise from the primary pinion shaft bearing (593619); worn teeth on the primary pinion (FRC1339) syncro gear.

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The ground (and a couple of broken off) teeth are the only really obvious fault that I can find so far, everything else looks brand new. The contrast with the syncro rings and gears on the main shaft is striking, these look completely unworn

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Imagew

The brass shoes on the selector forks look virtually unworn too.

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As do all of the shaft splines

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Anyway, I now have a bench full of LT95 parts ready for a clean up.

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I've bitten the bullet and ordered (at great expense :() a rebuild kit and replacement primary pinion. I decided that since it was now in pieces it would be madness to put it all back together with the old bearings, etc. and not have replacements available if it became clear that they were needed. I also have the spare box which I'll likely rebuild sometime so the parts (old or new) will probably be used for that.

Next challenge will be pressing new bearings back on/in. I hope I don't have to spend more money on a press! I'm hoping oven hot bearings and gentle pressure will suffice. Then it's shimming and checking preload etc.
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

map1275
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Restoration

Post by map1275 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:09 pm

Presses are cheap. Certainly cheaper than your hydraulic puller. Don't forget checking bite on the baulk rings (ability to grab the tapered face of the gear). Plus which way up the drain holes go in the oil pump. Glueing the output splines (you're supposed to omit the felt washer but I typically fit both). There's also a multitude of output seals with different fitted positions. But generally there are a straightforward box with few assembly quirks.

disco2hse
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:51 am
Location: Auckland NZ

Re: Restoration

Post by disco2hse » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:47 pm

To be honest, I'm not really surprised and the wear/damage you show is what I would expect from a truck gearbox with comparatively low miles (for a truck that it is, not a car). If it has had its regular oil refill, then it should all be good for half a million k's.

When our D2 had its auto trans rebuilt after 280k and and the motor mechanics somehow managed to damage a tooth my transfer box the internal wear was pretty much nil and everything was shiny new.
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5

Cliff4WD
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:39 pm
Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK

Re: Restoration

Post by Cliff4WD » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:03 pm

I guess the LT95 is a relatively straightforward box to work on for a first timer. LT230 And R380 in the Disco and various Diffs on the future to-do list.

Can you explain more the "glue" in method you're referring to Map? Cheers.
Cliff

1981 109 V8 Stage 1
2000 Discovery 2 Td5

109 V8: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2161
My Disco Thread: http://www.thed2boysclub.co.uk/viewtopi ... =3&t=58130

LAND ROVER. TURNING OWNERS INTO PAUPERS FOR 70 YEARS

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