Swivels

Technical questions and answers
Post Reply
steeps
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:24 pm

Swivels

Post by steeps »

Hi

I've read on another thread that the series 3 swivels can be used if they are machined slightly to make room for the cv joints, also that the railco bush and pin can similarly be machined and used. Here is one thread ; viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1693 from user Alicerover.

I wonder if either Alicerover or anyone else can give me the details of the machining required in the swivels, please? The railco bush/pin I think should be obvious but I can't be sure from the picture in the thread on the work needing done on the swivels.

I'm hoping to fit series 3 swivels as one of mine is extremely pitted. Looking at ~160 each to re-chrome plus I guess any repair work to get a smooth finish to chrome onto

In other news, 'Boris' is now completely stripped and the new galv chassis is sat on the axle stands waiting the axles re-fitting. About to order *a lot of parts* from Paddocks to get cracking...

Thanks
Steeps
Attachments
IMGP0405.JPG
IMGP0405.JPG (239.11 KiB) Viewed 4791 times
Alicerover
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Leicestershire

Re: Swivels

Post by Alicerover »

Hello.
The work that needs to be done to make the standard series swivel fit is realtivly minor. All you need to do is to grind of the sharp edge where the inside of the swivel ball has been machined. I used the CV joint as a guide to see how much needed taking off. In the pics in the thread I put up I tried to make it as clear as I could so that others could copy. An easy job to do that saved me hundreds of pounds. I fitted taper roller bearing to the top swivel pin as I have a disc brake conversion as well :mrgreen: and I was worried about the rotational loadings on the bushing, alls that needed was for the swivel pin to be turned down to allow the bearing to slip onto the shaft.
It's been a while since I have posted on here and Alice has changed quite a bit so I'll update my thread.
Just to say, I have now covered just over 8000 miles since Alice was put back on the road and I have had no problems at all with the front axle, except I have a noisy front diff :( the only thing I didn't referb on the axle. Doh!!
I hope that this has helped
riedland
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:56 pm

Re: Swivels

Post by riedland »

steeps wrote:Hi

I've read on another thread that the series 3 swivels can be used if they are machined slightly to make room for the cv joints, also that the railco bush and pin can similarly be machined and used. Here is one thread ; viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1693 from user Alicerover.
Hi, interesting question, I had the same dilemma when I rebuilt my stage one

To make room to the CV-joint the bottom bearing is slightly pushed out off the swivel ball and the top bush is shortened, to keep the contact pressure to a right level the stage one pin is then made bigger as the standard one, additionally the swivel casing itself is also machined differently. So shortening standard pin and bushing works but the wear will be quicker and if you don't offset the bearings neither will the half-shaft be centered on the axle casing axis nor will the swivel-ball seal seats properly.
To illustrate the differences between the two swivel bearing machining I have taken some pictures (fortunately I didn't threw out the worn part).

First I have compared the flanges diameter to check if the measurement I wanted to do is accurate :
S1 swivel (groove on the outer flange surface) --> 5'
Image

S3 / 4 cylinders swivel --> 5'
Image

Now with the help of an angle and drilling bits I measured the gap between the angle and the flange.
In the background the standard swivel, you can clearly see that the ball bearing racer seats deeper in the swivel ball casing.
Image
Image

Not S1 part :
Image
Image

There is a vertical offset of approx 2 mm I have corrected by adding a washer below the bearing racer (made of an old Railco bush machined on a lathe if I remember well).
Hope this helps !
BigJ66
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:09 am

Re: Swivels

Post by BigJ66 »

Resurrecting an old thread here but I’m trying to find out some further information on fitting CVs to a standard series axle.

I can see that some slight grinding of material is required inside the standard 4 pot swivel ball to allow the CV joint to clear.

I believe the CV joint is an early Defender version and that a 10/23 spline half shaft can be sourced from DDE to fit between the diff and the CV.

What I’m unclear about is what outer drive shaft to use between the CV and the hub although I believe it is also off an early Defender.

To finish off will I need to use the DDE drive flange shown in this photo or is this also a standard Landrover part that I can buy to bolt to the Series hub?

https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/ ... p124940308
map1275
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Swivels

Post by map1275 »

What outer drive shaft?

The CV plugs in to the drive flange. It's not an early Range-Rover where the drive flange has a short stub axle that pushes in to the CV.
BigJ66
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:09 am

Re: Swivels

Post by BigJ66 »

map1275 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:38 am What outer drive shaft?

The CV plugs in to the drive flange. It's not an early Range-Rover where the drive flange has a short stub axle that pushes in to the CV.
Cheers, a read of the parts manual after I posted last night highlighted that. I think I’ve found the correct part AEU2522?
map1275
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Swivels

Post by map1275 »

Still not sure where you're going?

The 110 CV doesn't fit without being modified. The circlip groove is in a different place to the 109V8.
Last edited by map1275 on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BigJ66
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:09 am

Re: Swivels

Post by BigJ66 »

map1275 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:20 am Still not sure where you're going?

The 110 CV doesn't fit without being modified. The circle groove is in a different place to the 109V8.
Ah okay. I was looking on the DDE website and saw this:

https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/ ... p124940308

It doesn’t mention any mods to the CV so I assumed it was a standard early one that would fit the series hub.

I have a SWB series 3 with a Thor V8 and ZF auto/LT230. I want permanent 4wd without fitting coil axles so when reading the Alicerover thread I got the impression that by grinding out some surplus material from my 4 pot swivel ball I can fit the early Defender CV joint and then use the DDE half shafts between the diff and the CV.

https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/ ... p162773954

I also understand that I can then use my existing swivel housing, stub axle and hub to complete the job but will need this carrier for the half shaft oil seal.

https://www.designdevelopmenteng.co.uk/ ... p150461290

And a standard Defender drive flange to suit the CV spline which I think will be 23 inner and 24 outer. Or, is the drive flange exclusive to the Stage 1? I know it will need to be machined down by about 2mm to allow the circuit to be fitted to the Defender CV spline but I’m not certain if a Defender drive flange bolt pattern will match the Stage 1/Series hub???

If anyone has any additional information then it would be appreciated.
map1275
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Swivels

Post by map1275 »

I think you will find the CV they sell is a special, based on 110.

The reason most 109 V8 owners don't use 110 CV joints is because they don't fit. Otherwise we'd all be having a party and fitting new, genuine CVs.

110 and later have a five bolt drive flange. Earlier vehicles are six bolt.

During Defender, flanges change again.

Not sure what you mean by a four pot hub.

Both your complete Series half shaft assemblies and bearings in the outer axle tube would be discarded. Replaced by shafts and CVs
BigJ66
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:09 am

Re: Swivels

Post by BigJ66 »

map1275 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:11 pm I think you will find the CV they sell is a special, based on 110.

The reason most 109 V8 owners don't use 110 CV joints is because they don't fit. Otherwise we'd all be having a party and fitting new, genuine CVs.

110 and later have a five bolt drive flange. Earlier vehicles are six bolt.

During Defender, flanges change again.

Not sure what you mean by a four pot hub.

Both your complete Series half shaft assemblies and bearings in the outer axle tube would be discarded. Replaced by shafts and CVs
The 110 CVs do fit according to the Alicerover thread and I know of one other guy who has fitted them to his lightweight using the same technique of grinding away the surplus material inside the swivel ball.

I’ve ordered a pair to fit inside my series 3 swivels so will take some photos and report back on the results.
map1275
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Swivels

Post by map1275 »

Standard series swivels don't accept ANY CV joints without grinding away hub material.

110 CV joints don't fit in 109V8s because the circlip grove is in a different position.

Some people sell modified 110 CVs with a newly cut circlip groove that fits 109V8 but no longer suits 110.
Finn1
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Re: Swivels

Post by Finn1 »

According to the Alicerover thread he machined down the drive flange a little to the circlip to seat in the 110 CV joint. I'm guessing this is what the DDR kit has.

Can one simply swap the whole swivel housing - from the 6 bolted flange outwards - from a Defender/110 on to the Stage 1 front axle, inherit all the upgrades like top bearing and disc brakes? The Defender swivel flange seems to have 7 bolts, 5 of which seem to be on a 6 hole pattern with the other 2 either side what would be the 6th hole position. Do any of these align? I guess it boils down to where the extra length in the coiler axle is? In the swivel assembly or the axle itself.
Post Reply