Alice to the road!!

Technical questions and answers
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wpalmo
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Location: western australia

Post by wpalmo »

Second time around. Hope this works. Thanks for the instructions Geoff.

Regards Warrick.


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IMG_4578-web by wpalmo, on Flickr
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wpalmo
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 9:28 am
Location: western australia

Post by wpalmo »

Looks like that worked. Thanks again Geoff.

Here are a couple more of the Stage One and what I am up to. Hope you like them.

Regards Warrick.

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fishing trip with the boys 2005 by wpalmo, on Flickr

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Fishing trip with the boys 2005 by wpalmo, on Flickr

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Felicity and the girls making the Series look very attractive indeed, Margaret River 2011 by wpalmo, on Flickr

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IMG_4584-web by wpalmo, on Flickr

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IMG_4582-web by wpalmo, on Flickr
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Geoff
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Post by Geoff »

I see the Stage 1 pickup is still the vehicle of choice for white slavers :)
2 1981 Stage One 109 V8 SWs
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Alicerover
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Leicestershire

Post by Alicerover »

Hi Warrick.

Glad that you are finding Alice's story an interesting one!!
Regarding the front axle and the disc brake conversion. The kit being offered by Roam Offroad is avaiable in both imperial and metric sets, have been waiting for the latest batch to be finished and I hope to be able to purchase these soon. They have been very helpful in advising how to get around the issue of finding parts that don't cost the earth to replace. The stage 1 swivel ball is almost identical to the standard series ball and needs a little work with a grinder to provide the necessary clearance for the CV joint, which by the way you can use the early Defender CV joint AEU 2522. There is also an issue with the swivel pins which will need shimming to gain clearance. All of this has been done before by Tim Cooper, he was going to send me some more info on this when he could. Once I have all the parts together I will post some pics of what is needed. One problem that you will have, being 'down under', is getting round some of the red tape that surrounds modifying your vehicle. Might be worth checking this out as it may prove very costly to get the conversion approved.
Over here the MOT test is undergoing some major changes which may also effect modifications over here.
Your truck looks good, like the female accesories, can't seem to find the part number for them though!! :D
If you need help in sourcing engine bits give me a shout, my father-in-law (John Eales) has a few bits and pieces for them.
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wpalmo
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Location: western australia

Post by wpalmo »

Thanks for getting back to me Spen. I appreciate your offer regarding the help for sourcing parts which I am sure I will take you up on in the future.

Have you spoken to Timm Cooper yourself regarding the kits suitability for the Stage One front axle? Are you keen to go through with the modifications needed to use his kit? I look forward to seeing your progress as I have followed other threads and they seem to die off with out showing the conclusion of the disk brake conversion. I can only assume it all becomes to hard or expensive or both when converting to disks on the Stage One front axle.

The other way is to use a kit like the Zeus kit. From the research that I have done it will fit the Stage One front axle but if you need to replace rotors or callipers then they will have to be sourced from Zeus unlike the Cooper kit that uses Defender rotors and callipers. It is the consumable Defender parts and their world wide availability that the Cooper kit utilises that I like. This conversion would be in my opinion the best way to go if it can fit the Stage One without much modification.

I am still a while away from taking on this project as the motor and gearbox overhaul is consuming my cash resources so I will watch your progress with interest.

Regards Warrick.
Alicerover
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Location: Leicestershire

Post by Alicerover »

I have spoken to Tim Cooper via e-mail, and he has converted a number of stage 1's to disc brakes. The kits are designed to fit the standard series setup using the UJ half shafts, but with at little work to gain the necessary clearance for the CJ joints in the stage 1 axle, it is possible to fit. They were first developed over 15 years ago!! so they are well proven in the states.
As this topic has been raised numerous times, and is surrounded by numerous myths about what you can and cannot do, I intend to write up a 'how to do' guide on the conversion.
Keeping the parts all LandRover is , I think, important, so that spares are not an issue.
The Defender 4 pot calipers and vented disc's will significantly improve the braking perfomance (Remember to change the brake master cylinder for the Defender one to alter the brake bias). These type of conversions don't suit everyone due to the complex issues, but as Alice is to replace my current Discovery 2, I want ensure that she has sensible modifications to improve the driveability for everyday use. My current occupation is a Flour Miller and I reguarly have upto 1/2 tonne of flour to deliver. I also enjoy taking holidays in my caravan with my family, so good reliable brakes are important!!
Yes the cost of the conversion is not cheap, but I see it as an investment as I don't see me replacing Alice.
map1275
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Post by map1275 »

So you have actually checked that this conversion or any of the others will pass the West Australia vehicle modification scheme?

As it won't pass the Queensland scheme or the pending national system.
Alicerover
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Post by Alicerover »

This is an issue that the guys at Roam Off Road are aware of and are currently looking into getting their kit aproved.
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wpalmo
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Post by wpalmo »

map1275 wrote:So you have actually checked that this conversion or any of the others will pass the West Australia vehicle modification scheme?

As it won't pass the Queensland scheme or the pending national system.
Thanks for the tip. I will look into the red tape issues as I am in no hurry to do the conversion. I do know from past experience of modifying vehicles that the modifications must be inspected by the Western Australian Department of Transport for approval. Engine changes, gas conversions etc, so assume it will be a similar process. I would also assume it would need an engineer to sign off on the conversion to meet the regulations.

Seems odd that you would not be able to do a disk brake conversion though when you see the types of vehicles getting around on Australian roads like those of the Hot Rodding community that use braking systems from Jaguar and other manufactures and the whole AC Cobra kit car fraternity that have similar grafted on braking systems depending on the budget they have to throw at the kit.

I know the Volkswagen community have disk brake conversion kits to suit the Volkswagen range of vehicles for all the original factory drum brake built vehicles. So it must be possible to license a Series Land Rover that has a road worthy disk brake conversion even in Queensland. I assume that AC Cobra replica's, Model T and 56 Kombi hotrods are legally driving on Queensland roads.

Would you consider converting your Stage One to disk brakes Map1275 if the Timm Cooper kit could be approved for Queensland/Australian roads? The original Stage One drum set up is good for a 4 wheel drum braking system however from reading the testimonials of Series Land Rover owners who have used the Timm Cooper kit there is a massive improvement in Safety and performance over the factory fitted drums. This is obviously why the County/Defender vehicles were developed with disk brake systems as they really are the same vehicle as far as weight and size to the Series 3 range.

Regards Warrick.
map1275
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Post by map1275 »

No I wouldn't because it would never get an honest approval. As per the endless streams on this topic; None of the sellers ever address the legality issues including Rocky Mountain.

The only system that comes close is Santana which as another lister has pointed out uses IVECO parts.

As every other State and Territory uses a similar system to Queensland (though with a different admin. process) and with the looming national system which is still very similar, I would be very surprised if W.A. is using something completely different. I would suggest you obtain facts instead of alluding to what Rodders use as they have their own special category.
Similarly I am continually confronted with clients making wild allusions to what other people are doing without them having any comprehension of the facts; whether any of these other conversions are actually legal in any way, whether any of the few that have actually been signed off would pass and honest inspection, what was actually involved in the process and how any of this actually relates to their situation...

Having just had a spot check from Qld. Transport on Monday and coming away with a glowing report (which surprised the hell out of me) I must be doing something right as an Approved Person for vehicle modifications.
Last edited by map1275 on Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
disco2hse
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Location: Auckland NZ

Post by disco2hse »

I am somewhat amazed that it is so difficult. As has been mentioned, low volume vehicle builders manage to get their approvals. Why not LR owners?

I have no idea/interest in how it is done in OZ, but here in NZ, there is a well trodden process that is largely governed by the LVVTA. They even have a website http://www.lvvta.org.nz/

To be honest, if it were not so expensive, I too might consider changing over. Before that, I'd get a KAM locker for the Salisbury in the rear and uprate the front diff and a KAM locker. I'd get bars around the vehicle and sliders. I'd make skid plates and finally get rid of that stupid cross member (aka, the grader).

That little lot probably comes in at around 10 grand. The vehicle just isn't worth that much.
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5
map1275
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Post by map1275 »

Using the Queensland system as an example, it isn't that complex to get approval. It's a basic four step process and that's it.

The problem is that most clients don't want to do more than breath. Too frequently they put more effort into their excuses for not doing the right thing than they did with the job. The TPT Authority does SFA in public education and client attitudes reflect this.

The most common general problem would be clients doing the entire process backwards and then wondering why some one won't just sign-off on what they've done. Adapting that to this situation and as has been previously repeatedly covered; instead of dreaming about fitting whatever conversion to your vehicle and allocating approval to some later issue, why aren't you first addressing the seller for where they are quoting specific design approval standards and precise vehicle applications.... then seeing if this is correct with your local authority, then looking at price etc.

Whereas all we ever see in specifications is the general title of Series III and no other details.
disco2hse
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Post by disco2hse »

Right. So what you're saying is that there is no real problem with getting certified. Just ensure that you engage an engineer earlier rather than later, and start the process before you begin.

That is no different to here.

One thing I forgot to mention. I would also like an X-Eng disc hand brake. If I were get one of these installed, I would need a certification plate. No problem, get an engineer, tell/show him what is to be done, get approval, order the parts and install according to agreed process. Get the work signed off and bob's-yer-uncle.

Something more complex, like these braking systems, might require the engineer checking over the parts before installation, or their specs at least. No big deal really. Costs about $430+. If welds are required, they might (probably will) require them to be x-rayed, etc. My favourite fabricators can provide all these services, and have even put me onto a certifier they work with regularly in the past.

Depends on the budget, in the end.
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5
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wpalmo
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Post by wpalmo »

Ten grand is a lot of money but still a lot cheaper than a well sorted Defender and a hell of a lot more fun. From my own observations Series Land Rovers and more so the Stage One are actually increasing in value. I purchased mine about 11 years ago for $1500 and have been offered a lot more than that for it from people who have left notes on my wind screen.

About a year ago I was surprised to find the third note from an interested admirer and I gave him a call. He did know that the vehicle was a Stage One and that they were quite a different beast to the standard Series 3. He offered me 7 K if I would part with my Stage One. Any way I do think that this is obviously an extreme price for the vehicle but he did want it and I wasn't selling it so perhaps the reason for the inflated price. I am very confident however that I would easily sell it for more than I purchased the vehicle for, even before I decided to spend money rebuilding the motor and gearbox.

One thing that I do believe is that they certainly won't be deprecating now unlike Defenders. They still have a way to go before they turn the corner and start the appreciation cycle.

Regards Warrick.
disco2hse
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Post by disco2hse »

All good points.

Will you call my bank manager? Image
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5
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