Mudflaps

Anything else related to the Stage 1 V8
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Bug4029
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Mudflaps

Post by Bug4029 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:59 am

Hi,

Are the Stage 1 V8 mudflaps specific or generic LWB S3? I've also seen the logo in yellow or uncoloured, is there a right and wrong for Stage 1 production?

Kind regards,
George

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:23 pm

Press photos at the time of Stage 1 production show them all with rear mudflaps with the Land Rover lettering and the Station Wagons at least with front wheel mudflaps as well. As most of these photos are not colour it's not possible to know if the lettering is yellow or white, but I believe yellow is the older and probably the original on Stage Ones. I have them of each on my two vehicles, but I don't know that the white is original. What I do know is that the brackets for them are Stage 1 specific, and expensive and hard to come by now:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New-La ... 1438.l2649

Not sure that the mudflaps themselves are Stage 1 specific as only the front ones are given a part number in the parts book separate from the brackets (and only the LHS one of those is given separate numbers for the 109V8 and the 4 cylinder) - to confuse matters further, the parts book's only page showing the mudflaps appears to be just for the HCPU, when clearly the flaps were fitted to many other models.

What I am sure of is that any NOS flaps from this period are now hard to find and expensive. I paid £138 3 years ago to replace my yellow lettered ones and they were not Stage 1 specific but fitted the original brackets fine:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2011&p=12357&hilit=mudflaps#p12357

And I even managed to defray some of the cost by selling the one surviving worn one on ebay to a guy in Italy!

I now confidently await someone telling me I'm wrong about some of this. But does anyone care enough to bother?
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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:05 pm

Just looked at James Taylor's Land Rover Series 3 Specification Guide and he definitely says Series 3 mudflap lettering was yellow and the white was later 90/110. He says, "On 109s, the left-hand rear flap had to be cut during fitting to go round the exhaust." This isn't the case for the 109V8 exhaust though. He also refers to the two different types of bracket and describes the difference without saying one is for the Stage 1, but the parts book does. I am always coming across differences for the Stage 1 and wondering what the reason for it is - and sometimes if indeed there is any reason or it just is.
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Bug4029
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Bug4029 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:21 pm

That all makes sense. I'm guessing that 109 V8s used the 88 rear mudflaps to avoid the unnecessary notch. I've also seen the Land Rover logo is black (uncoloured).

Kind regards,
George

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:45 pm

I think the black is later still than the white (also later when all the paint has worn off!)

If you mean the notch in the LHS bracket, the one on ebay doesn't have one, but the LHS brackets on both my vehicles do, and I highly doubt they are not original. Who knows? - who cares? - the rubber flap covers it anyway. I understand Land Rover had a habit of using whatever was available in the factory that would work in the way of parts if they'd temporarily run out of the 'correct' ones, and that can account for a good many anomalies. (If you meant the notch in the rubber flap, that had to be cut by the fitter to go round the individual 109 vehicle's exhaust, and only when necessary, so not on the V8. According to James Taylor, that was because production tolerances were too wide to cut it out earlier)
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map1275
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by map1275 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:42 am

It depends on precisely what model and destined market you have. Otherwise the general question is pointless.
In many markets rear mudflaps were mandated. In Australia this was blue on white LA part with brackets welded to the rear outriggers for all later Series III.

Fronts are at least are the common B-Leyland/Unipart plain unmarked black with painted bracketry. They are an ordinary fit. Present repros appear quite accurate save for being galvanised instead of painted.

disco2hse
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by disco2hse » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:43 pm

Whereas in New Zealand, mud flaps are not required (they are optional) and you rarely see them here on Series III's. Part of the reason was that they get in the way in soft mud (which we have a lot of :D).
Alan

1983 ex-army FFR 109 Stage 1
2005 Disco 2 HSE TD5

Glen
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Glen » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm

Series mudflaps would have had yellow rased letters though they can fade to whiteish. I think the colour is in the rubber so they don't seem to loose it completely, rather like white wall tyres.

You can now get "genuine" replacements with rased logos in black, they are a bit thin and floppy but mine havn't fallen apart yet so are better than the cheep britpart ones which from what I've heard drop off within a year - all in they seem the best easilly currently avalable. All of these are technically the 88 'kit' which is an assembly of the flap plus a mounting strip to go on the rear cross member, I think that setup was also ment to be used on series 2 109s.

Series 3 109's have the flaps further forward behind the rear wheels which seems a better location so they are on more complex brackets that join the wings to the chassis - long obsolete and NOS kits seem to fetch a fortune. Interesting thing is the flaps them selfs are the same mouldings as those on the 88 just mounted on the other side as the brackets slope the other way to the cross member. To complicate matters, this forward position is where the exhaust routes on the 4 (and possubly 6) cyl 109 so and it seems LR favored just cutting a hole in the flap and bracket of the left hand flap to allow the exhaust to pass through rather than bothering to realign the pipe (which would require stocking more spares and maybe changing the chassis design). The good news is on the stage 1 the exhaust was designed to go behind the mudflaps so they don't need trimming - therefore you can buy the 88 flap kit for about £45 and then make your own brakets to hold in the factory position. I made mine a bit taller so they block stuff going over the flap and landing above the rear cross member - this is why having them forward of the cross member on the S3 is a much better design. If you do mount them on the cross member, be aware that whilst it works okay on a 4 cyl, the exhaust being further back on the V8 means its a bit close and it' might get a bit melty - thats why I moved mine (well, that and one of the old ones fell off).

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:03 pm

Glen wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
Series mudflaps would have had yellow rased letters though they can fade to whiteish. I think the colour is in the rubber so they don't seem to loose it completely, rather like white wall tyres.
I hate to nit-pick (tho' I'll go ahead and do so anyway!) but the lettering on original Series 3 mudflaps was not raised, but cut into the rubber. I also doubt the colour was in the rubber in any way, unless it's possible it could soak into it to some extent somehow, as it can most certainly disappear altogether in enough time (I imagine it would lose it even more quickly if it was raised and not indented).

(My usual & standard caveat: I await someone telling me I'm not entirely correct!)

Final thought - is this the most obscure, esoteric and 'rivet-counting' thread on here ever?! :shock: :lol:
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Glen
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Glen » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:08 pm

Geoff wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:03 pm
Glen wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:31 pm
Series mudflaps would have had yellow rased letters though they can fade to whiteish. I think the colour is in the rubber so they don't seem to loose it completely, rather like white wall tyres.
I hate to nit-pick (tho' I'll go ahead and do so anyway!) but the lettering on original Series 3 mudflaps was not raised, but cut into the rubber. I also doubt the colour was in the rubber in any way, unless it's possible it could soak into it to some extent somehow, as it can most certainly disappear altogether in enough time (I imagine it would lose it even more quickly if it was raised and not indented).

(My usual & standard caveat: I await someone telling me I'm not entirely correct!)

Final thought - is this the most obscure, esoteric and 'rivet-counting' thread on here ever?! :shock: :lol:
Guess that musat make the set I have on my 88 extra RARE then. On closer inspection they seem to have a rather thick rubbery coating applied to the tops of the raised letters - now white, if you pick at the edges it reveals the true yellow colour of the coating underneath (they were definately yellow when I fitted them!). I can see though where bits of the coating is comming away so yes it could come off to just leave the rased letters in black through time, to look more like the current generation of "genuine" ones that they can't be bothered to paint. Are their other veriants out there, probubly, there usally are.

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:42 pm

How do you know yours are original Series 3 ones? They sound like someone painted them yellow. Very few original ones would have survived in reasonable condition all this time on the vehicle, though they could be original replacements fitted at any time since.

This is what they should look like:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gen-NEW-Land ... .l4275.c10

ImageUntitled by Geoff172, on Flickr
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Glen
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Glen » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:38 pm

Well that is a mystery then. Certainly seen many raised yellow Z logo'd sets over the years - can't imagine they are fakes given how many seem to have been made with such prominant branding as part of the mould, though maybe LR changed the design at some point and I'm just not old enough to remember the 'original' variant - rather anoyingly I feal I'm probubly going to be double taking every one of these I see from now on looking for the alusive unicon/survivor. I guess if they were impressed you'd need a thicker peice of rubber so it'd make sense to switch it round and save materials (though actully given they have a rim round the edge the whole background is actully empressed and only the logo, the rim and the top mounting edge is the full thickness of the mould) - the current versions (still a 'genuine part' seem to be competing with Apple for thinness which makes them flap all over the place on the motorway - I don't think they'll be lasting decades, but they've already outlasted some britpart ones and they still keep some of the muck off the rear cross member and that's the main point. When they go I'll probubly cut up some old pit belt and use that as it lasts forever - might even paint the logo on too if I can be bothered, to confuse people.

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 pm

The ones I have are certainly very thick and sturdy. These look like the ones you're describing:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gen-Land-Rov ... 3.l4275.c4

It's entirely possible there was more than one type at different times (or even at the same time!) - oh why did I go and break my golden rule to never try to state anything definitive about Land Rovers?!

I just hope I will not become similarly afflicted, going around staring mysteriously at everyone's mudflaps.
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Glen
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Glen » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:36 pm

Its very hard to tell from those photos if they are inny or outy lettering. Maybe I'm being cinical but given how terrable the paint finish apears to be on those ebay links (my eyes are struggleing to focus very well as I caught a glimps of the price first) it does look a bit like they might be the modern varients with the letters (badly) painted yellow and a scan of the old instructions. Commendment is due on the brakets which if they were actual NOS I doubt would be described as laser cut - much tidier that the ones I made in an afternoon sure - but I think £300 is asking a bit much for such things. Yes I get theres likely some development costs in copying some parts to make make reproductions but I think thats setting the bar a bit high unless they really are a one off.

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Geoff
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Re: Mudflaps

Post by Geoff » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:59 pm

These looked a better buy for someone:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Genuine-Land-Ro ... 1613750126

I think I can tell whether the lettering is cut in or raised, and these look raised. Probably quite genuine yellow lettering, but I still think probably a bit later than the cut in lettering sort. I originally thought all the Series 3 flaps must have cut in lettering because I understand white lettering came later and one of my trucks appears to have white lettering and yet still cut in. I'm now thinking these may not be later replacements as I assumed but original and the yellow faded to white. I think I've now had enough of this subject.
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